Curse

The Air Revenger · Jun 10, 2009, 02:31 AM // 02:31

600/smite isnt nearly as bad a problem as a perma sin is. i say leave it as it is.

Hailey Anne · Jun 10, 2009, 02:58 AM // 02:58

100% /notsigned.
This is one of the few balanced skills there are, no need for nerf.
Don't "fix" what isnt broken.

Back then · Jun 10, 2009, 02:59 AM // 02:59

Op probably got kicked from a 600/smite team or got called a bad name by a 55 monk.

Shayne Hawke · Jun 10, 2009, 05:12 AM // 05:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by MagmaRed

Missed the 'base health' note for Protective Spirit. So this would be 480 for everyone? Meaing it would basically only allow 48 health to anyone it is on. Survivor insignias and runes of Vitae and Vigor would be included in 'base health'?

Base health for 20s would be 480, which means PS on any level 20 would only allow them to take 48 damage maximum from any one attack. Runes, insignia, upgrades, etc. are not included.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hailey Anne

no need for nerf.

what. If anything, the change to Prot Spirit would be a buff to general PvE players, if they're smart enough to be walking around with more than 485 health.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Air Revenger

600/smite isnt nearly as bad a problem as a perma sin is. i say leave it as it is.

I'll agree with you that dealing with the permasin problem should come first. However, after that, 600/Smite turns out to be the next big offender in turning the more high-end PvE areas into cakewalks. I would be willing to say it's even more of an issue than CoP or SY!, because teams that use those currently tend to have diverse professions and require either great team coordination or a tank to hold aggro.

Quote:

Originally Posted by FengShuiDove

Maybe I'm missing something but uhhhhmmm... DPing parties are gonna be screwed without penalty removal.

Just as speculation, a standard 600 health with 60% DP has 240 health, and with your suggestion, damage is limited to 48 per hit. This means that even with Prot Spirit 5 hits without a heal is death, which is entirely possible in a short amount of time in HM.

If I remember correctly, DP only affects your base health, so the player would instead have 312. The concern is understandable, but also consider how many ways have been made available for removing DP and that the skill change would actually be a buff to teams initially. Teams with members of 600 Health each would only be taking 48 damage with PS on them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alexander Burn Victim

- If I wanted to PvP for my title, I would. Personally I can't stand the people there, and if it was up to me I'd remove it. Fix HA and bad GvG meta first.

Vanquishing with H/H and books are still feasible methods of gaining faction in PvE. What DSC and MQSC have done is encouraged all of the smart and lazy players looking only for quick faction to pull out from doing the Kurzick and Luxon PvP arenas. This leaves you with handfuls of less-skilled players in the PvP arenas which ends up creating one-sided fights more often than not.

Removing those farms would push players to replay missions, group up for vanquishes, or go back to the PvP arenas. Hopefully, if enough of those players go back into PvP, it will spark more competitive play.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sonofthort

If you really want to nerf 600's, why not nerf holy wrath? I'm not saying I think that 600's should be nerfed, but holy wrath seems to be the most questionable skill they use, seeing as you can maintain the enchanment even at zero energy when the -10 energy loss holy wrath causes no longer matters.

Decent point. That would at least slow runners down, but I almost feel that could also encourage runners to use it as an excuse for pulling more money from customers' pockets. In the case of DSC and MQSC, it would slow the run down surely, possibly not to the point of it being given up though, unless there were some mob or enemy in particular in one of those that may already be hard to kill.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MisterB

No, reworking those skills as you've outlined would encourage players to use a different build to farm.

Given how core of an element PS has been in both PvE and PvP, I doubt that any builds that pop up as a result to this change would find nearly as widespread use as the setups that currently use PS as a farming skill. I don't expect people to just stop farming things because PS was changed, but I feel it'll be better than having a situation where two bars slot three to four core skills each and then use variants to tackle a great number of areas originally meant to be seen as challenging.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arkantos

Does it honestly matter at this point? There's more overpowered builds than 600/smite, and ANet doesn't care. Sure, nerf 600/smite, you still have everything else. In the end you change nothing.

Since ANet has let Shadow Form run rampant for as long as it has now, I already know better than to expect ANet to do anything regarding aforementioned skills. And yes, I do agree there are a few bigger problem skills and builds in PvE that could get tackled first, but that doesn't void 600/Smite from being a problem for what it has become. I've seen numerous suggestions on what should be done with SF, CoP, SY!, and now I'd like to see what everyone thinks could or should be changed with 600/Smite.

MirkoTeran · Jun 10, 2009, 05:21 AM // 05:21

Sure, why not. But only after they nerf all the other batshit-insane PvE(only) skills (not just SF and CoP).

Sierraa · Jun 10, 2009, 06:39 AM // 06:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shayne Hawke

Vanquishing with H/H and books are still feasible methods of gaining faction in PvE. What DSC and MQSC have done is encouraged all of the smart and lazy players looking only for quick faction to pull out from doing the Kurzick and Luxon PvP arenas. This leaves you with handfuls of less-skilled players in the PvP arenas which ends up creating one-sided fights more often than not.

Removing those farms would push players to replay missions, group up for vanquishes, or go back to the PvP arenas. Hopefully, if enough of those players go back into PvP, it will spark more competitive play.

You're right, and I've always said if people want to do the same thing all day to max w/e title, sure. For me personally, I can do a few quick DTSC runs and go back to doing something else. Vanquishing, and filling the books take a while. DTSC doesn't encourage me to "pull out" from doing pvp arenas, I never did them in the first place.

NF ruined pugging, and unless heroes get taken out of the game, it's not really going to encourage more pugs. Heroes take the bars I want them to run and they don't complain or suck. :] Heroes > Players.

upier · Jun 10, 2009, 06:52 AM // 06:52

If I remember correctly, killing Ursan pushed the diversity of builds. People stopped relying on one overpowered build, but instead moved onto many new builds that enabled them to rather enjoy these insanely fun areas.
I mean, just look at DoA and how it flourished after the nerf!

DarkGanni · Jun 10, 2009, 07:01 AM // 07:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shayne Hawke

The point is indeed to get rid of 600/Smite, for two reasons:

- These teams have become farming/running giants, being able to clear nearly every dungeon, and a few high end areas.
- They're used as a base in the two fastest faction farms for each of the allegiance titles. Removing them would encourage players to go to the PvP arenas for these titles and hopefully stir up more competitive play there.

So basically you want to nerf 600/smite and 55 just so players play the way YOU want? Sorry if I'm rude but you're an idiot. Who the hell are you to say how players should get their titles?

zwei2stein · Jun 10, 2009, 07:15 AM // 07:15

So, you attempt to blame crappiness of AB players on fact that people PvE instead?

Pray tell, how would presence of people who 600/smite their title improve it?

People who 600/Smite their titles do want _title_ in most efficient manner, not to play PvP. If they want to to play PvP, they would do it.

At best you are gonna be stuck with ton of people who care more about hourly faction rate than about gameplay. Is that kind of attitude what you want

---

I would agree on 600/smite killed for dungeons. Sure, why not. They is no particular reason for them to be runnable, they are supposed to be challenge so it is kinda bad they are runnable. Add more skills that go though PS. Change dungeon mobs ai to stop suicidal attacks against 600. Even something as simple as monks being on 'passive' would to wonders (and double as buff for normal pve)

But I strongly disagree with killing Faction title fff. This one FFF made it possible to actually achieve those title in reasonable amount of time. And faction title is not challenge, it is just long grind (now not as long), which is baed.

And frankly, it is too late now after two weekends of double points, now isn't it.

Ferminator · Jun 10, 2009, 08:09 AM // 08:09

Killing 600/smite would be ok for dungeons, it gives my guildies an excuse to do those in HM and it shouldn't be long now before DSC and MQSC become so OP'ed that there are hundreds of guilds with faction in the millions and the nerfbat will swing hard, BUT, killing it first would force permasins (heck some smart one could manage to find a way to make shadow form work on another class) to find a way to rule the dungeons and BANG you got permasins ruling all of pve like ursan once did. And I don't like killing such an ancient build such as the 55. It's been around forever hasn't it? Yes prot spirit would be awesome in general pve, I agree on that point.

Yawgmoth · Jun 10, 2009, 09:53 AM // 09:53

There are more stupidly overpowered stuff in PvE that should be nerfed BEFORE this, but if something like a real balance should ever come to PvE, those skills need a fix aswell.

If we want a balanced PvE - ALL degenerate gimmicks should go bye bye!

Another thing which is more important to be fixed IMMEDIATELY, than killing the skills right now is killing FFF - greatly reduce faction reward for repeated vanquishes of the same area (only first vanq of an area should give the full reward)

zwei2stein · Jun 10, 2009, 10:07 AM // 10:07

For some reason i think that pro-fff-nerf people should also post whether they:

a) achieved max faction title already
b) if not: ever intent to get it

Should be enlightening.

glacialphoenix · Jun 10, 2009, 10:10 AM // 10:10

Quote:

They're used as a base in the two fastest faction farms for each of the allegiance titles. Removing them would encourage players to go to the PvP arenas for these titles and hopefully stir up more competitive play there.

Are you kidding? Were you around in the Kurzick AB outpost when HFFF was nerfed? You don't want to be around the PvP arenas if you do that. All you'll do is send the players who don't really want to PvP into the PvP arenas, clog up wait times, and get a ton of people unhappy. There are faster ways to get faction than AB/JQ/FA - give people those avenues, or the alliance-based arenas will be a mess.

upier · Jun 10, 2009, 11:38 AM // 11:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yawgmoth

There are more stupidly overpowered stuff in PvE that should be nerfed BEFORE this, but if something like a real balance should ever come to PvE, those skills need a fix aswell.

If we want a balanced PvE - ALL degenerate gimmicks should go bye bye!

Another thing which is more important to be fixed IMMEDIATELY, than killing the skills right now is killing FFF - greatly reduce faction reward for repeated vanquishes of the same area (only first vanq of an area should give the full reward)

10, 000, 000 faction for max title.
And there are 8 areas to explore and to VQ.

I think not.

ajc2123 · Jun 10, 2009, 01:01 PM // 13:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shayne Hawke

The point is indeed to get rid of 600/Smite, for two reasons:

- These teams have become farming/running giants, being able to clear nearly every dungeon, and a few high end areas.
- They're used as a base in the two fastest faction farms for each of the allegiance titles. Removing them would encourage players to go to the PvP arenas for these titles and hopefully stir up more competitive play there.

Sorry but I don't want anymore people in PvP factions areas. Long enough wait as it is to get into a fight now, DTSC is my only salvation.

IF however Anet decides to buy more server space for more battles at the same time with all their microtransaction money and does something about leachers, Then YES I'm fine with this change.

Don't think it will affect my prot monk too much...might make it better.

MithranArkanere · Jun 10, 2009, 01:26 PM // 13:26

Anything that makes people use all professions and change build for different areas instead using the same single build and profession everywhere is good for the game.

Tenebrae · Jun 10, 2009, 01:33 PM // 13:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by MithranArkanere

Anything that makes people use all professions and change build for different areas instead using the same single build and profession everywhere is good for the game.

Yes but nerfing those skills have nothing to do with that.

EPO Bot · Jun 10, 2009, 01:49 PM // 13:49

I would love it if Anet had the balls to get rid of all solo farm builds. You are not supposed to play the game like that. Period.

But whatever, it's doesn't hinder me.

Shayne Hawke · Jun 10, 2009, 01:50 PM // 13:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

If I remember correctly, killing Ursan pushed the diversity of builds. People stopped relying on one overpowered build, but instead moved onto many new builds that enabled them to rather enjoy these insanely fun areas.
I mean, just look at DoA and how it flourished after the nerf!

Fairly sure I recognize the sarcasm here. The reason that DoA has not seen any great amount of activity as of late is two-fold. First, it went from being an area cleared by a balanced team to being cleared by six powerhouses and two healers, and then those powerhouses were nerfed. Surely the bulk of those people runner the latter format would not be able to go back to the second.

Second, while Ursan was nerfed, permasins were not, and as such, you still had people doing various farms in other elite areas with those. I think it'd be reasonable to say that after Ursan got hit, people just moved to building permasins to conquer those areas instead of going back to the old balance, or even improving on that build to make it clear faster. DoA still won't see much activity until today's speed clears become suddenly less speedy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkGanni

So basically you want to nerf 600/smite and 55 just so players play the way YOU want? Sorry if I'm rude but you're an idiot. Who the hell are you to say how players should get their titles?

I find it a problem when two or three professions in the game have a monopoly on quick and relatively easy clears of many high-end areas. While I realize that removing one method of doing these will just make people move on to the next best thing, I feel that if enough of these overpowered formats are removed, the builds that will eventually pop up will be of more balanced teams and demand more skillful or coordinated play. What's so wrong about asking players that want to conquer the toughest areas in the game to play skillfully?

Quote:

Originally Posted by zwei2stein

So, you attempt to blame crappiness of AB players on fact that people PvE instead?

Pray tell, how would presence of people who 600/smite their title improve it?

People who 600/Smite their titles do want _title_ in most efficient manner, not to play PvP. If they want to to play PvP, they would do it.

At best you are gonna be stuck with ton of people who care more about hourly faction rate than about gameplay. Is that kind of attitude what you want

If people are into it for getting the title in the most efficient manner, then it would be sensible for them to also run the best builds that they can and to play as smart as possible. If such people move from their PvE farms into PvP, then hopefully more skillful players in the arena will breed more competition from both sides to improve.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ferminator

BUT, killing it first would force permasins (heck some smart one could manage to find a way to make shadow form work on another class) to find a way to rule the dungeons and BANG you got permasins ruling all of pve like ursan once did.

I believe that there's a reason that most dungeons aren't run by or don't use a permasin. They simply can't. A great number of the dungeons that are currently run by 600/Smite have too many dangers present in them to prevent a permasin from totally getting through it, and at a reasonable time. I don't think though that ANet would have any idea of nerfing PS or SB before they hit SF.

Quote:

Originally Posted by zwei2stein

For some reason i think that pro-fff-nerf people should also post whether they:

a) achieved max faction title already
b) if not: ever intent to get it

Should be enlightening.

r11 Kurzick and r8 Luxon, intentions to max both. I got over half of my Kurzick title through JQ, and all of my Luxon title through MQSC. If it gets nerfed, I'll just go back to JQ to get them both finished.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yawgmoth

Another thing which is more important to be fixed IMMEDIATELY, than killing the skills right now is killing FFF - greatly reduce faction reward for repeated vanquishes of the same area (only first vanq of an area should give the full reward)

I'd prefer that they not kill an entire option for gaining faction. That would only leave bounties and book completion as the ways for getting faction from strictly PvE, which I don't feel would be desirable.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenebrae

Yes but nerfing those skills have nothing to do with that.

You absolutely must have missed something in this thread. Please go back and re-read.

Back then · Jun 10, 2009, 01:58 PM // 13:58

I think anyone supporting this idea and the OP especially are the same people who form 8 man groups just to run out to Nicholas each week. In other words, people who need their hand held and hate the idea that other people can accomplish the same things as them, solo and in less time.

l2farm or go play the game. Stop trying to ruin other people's game because you can't do what they do. Farming hurts no one, if you nerf farming those people still aren't going to join your group, they'll just reject your invite spam and grab their heroes and still get through things faster then you. Pugs are dead, join a guild or deal with it.